http://thekingcenter.com/tkc/trial/Volume5.html

A tape recording revealing new evidence in the assassination of Martin Luther King has surfaced.

The participants in the new search for those responsible for Martin Luther King Jr.’s death are the defendant, Mr. Loyd Jowers, his attorney, Mr. Louis Garrison, Ambassador Andrew Young and plaintiff Dexter Scott King.

(Tape is played)

"LOYD JOWERS: Dexter, what you

been up to?

DEXTER KING: Well, I've been

keeping busy, working hard, traveling a lot.

LOYD JOWERS: You work a lot at

night, don't you? 

DEXTER KING: I do. You

remember. I was working late one night in my

office when I talked to you.

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

DEXTER KING: Keeping, you

know, keeping all things moving forward, just

still trying to deal with this issue. This

is a very trying issue, because, as you know,

my family, particularly my mother, I've been

concerned about because the media has been

very vicious --

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah.

DEXTER KING: -- in trying to

discredit and attack, you know, the family.

We had hoped that we would get to the bottom

of this so we can move on. I think in order

to have true closure, you have to get it

out. You have to get it out in the open.

So we appreciate your willingness to

open up and come forward. As you know, we

continue to support immunity for you, but, as

you know, the District Attorney doesn't seem

like they want the story to come out. So it

appears they are shutting everything down.

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LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

DEXTER KING: I think that

would be a major tragedy.

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, it would be,

definitely.

Don't you think so, Mr. Young?

ANDREW YOUNG: I do. In fact,

I think that -- I don't think I would be out

of order in saying if something happened and

you were indicted for anything, then I would

sure be willing to come over here and testify

on your behalf as having been -- as having

been very helpful to us in trying to

understand that. We would want to make sure

that nothing happened to you.

LOYD JOWERS: Well, you know,

this is what I don't understand, and I never

did understand it about President Kennedy:

That they know there has got to be a

conspiracy. Why they won't admit that and go

from there on the basis of prosecution,

whatever they have to do, I don't understand

why they won't do it.

LEWIS GARRISON: Mr. Jowers, Mr.

King and and Mr. Young have read the account

of this that I had written from what you had

and I had talked about. So they want to

question you.

LOYD JOWERS: Okay. Any time

you get ready.

LEWIS GARRISON: Feel free to go

forth.

DEXTER KING: When we last met,

you had pretty much taken us I think up to a

point where you had received the rifle from

Lieutenant Clark.

DEXTER KING: And you thought

it was a 30-30, you said, and you might have

been mistaken, that it was a 30-06.

LOYD JOWERS: I very well could

have been. Let me tell you that I knew he

owned a 30-30. I couldn't swear that that

was Clark that I took it from, but I believe

it was.

Now, see, it happened just about

that quick. (Snap of fingers.) I was at the

back door at six-oh-clock like I was supposed

to be. How many seconds did it take him to

hand me that rifle and get going? That was

just a split second.

LEWIS GARRISON: You said it was

still smoking?

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, the smoke was

still coming out the barrel of the rifle. I

breached it. Of course, that's what you've

got to do before you break one down.

LEWIS GARRISON: Clark had been

back that night, that afternoon?

LOYD JOWERS: He had been in the

place that day, yeah.

LEWIS GARRISON: Had you seen

him go in the back?

LOYD JOWERS: He went back and

looked out the back. You see, the way the

grill was laid out, up here is where all your

customers are. The kitchen is here. Back

here we've got a storeroom. He walked all

the way back.

Of course, I was there working, you

know. I didn't really pay attention to him.

Of course, he was a friend of mine.

ANDREW YOUNG: You met him by

the back door by the storeroom?

LOYD JOWERS: You are talking

about that night?

ANDREW YOUNG: Yes.

LOYD JOWERS: Yes, I met him --

yes, I was at the back door.

ANDREW YOUNG: Out of the

storeroom?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

ANDREW YOUNG: And he came up

from the woods back there or bushes?

LOYD JOWERS: From the bushes.

ANDREW YOUNG: And he handed you

the rifle?

LOYD JOWERS: About that quick.

All I got was a glance of him. I had the

back door standing open. I didn't have to

open the door or anything. It was standing

open. The rifle was smoking.

I'll put it like this: I thought it

was a 30-30. I didn't examine it. I didn't

have time. All I done was get that empty

shell out of it, and there were no other

shells in it but that one. That's all that

was in there.

The rifle was smoking. I broke it

down right quick, put it up under my apron,

walked up to the front, set it underneath the

counter. I wrapped it in a table cloth

first.

I stuck it under the counter and

went on up to the front of the building. By

the time the police got there, it took them

about two, two and a half minutes to get

there, I didn't have time to see nobody or do

nothing getting up there that quick. Of

course, I was working by myself.

ANDREW YOUNG: You had heard

the shot before you went to the back?

LOYD JOWERS: No, I was already

in the back.

ANDREW YOUNG: You were already

in the back at six-oh-clock?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

ANDREW YOUNG: You heard the

shot from from back there?

LOYD JOWERS: One shot is all I

heard.

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LEWIS GARRISON: You'd been told

to be back there at six, hadn't you?

LOYD JOWERS: I had been told to

be back there at six, yeah, that a man was

going to pass me a package. He didn't tell

me what it was. I certainly didn't know he

was going to shoot anybody, especially Dr.

King, the fact it turned out to be.

What I would have bet was a 30-30,

but it could have been a 30-06. There is not

that much difference in them if you ever

compared them. There is not that much

difference in them. They both break down

about the same way. I didn't have to break

it down, but I was told to --

ANDREW YOUNG: Did you used to

go hunting with Mr. Clark?

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah. I went

hunting with him. Never went with him any

more after that, though.

LEWIS GARRISON: You said you

and Mr. Clark worked at the police department

at same time, that you were a police officer

at the same time he was?

550

LOYD JOWERS: He come on the

police department just a short time before I

got off. But now we went hunting down in

Mississippi pretty regularly, went hunting on

Rex Chenault's place down in Mississippi ,

down below Hernando.

ANDREW YOUNG: Is Mr. Clark

still alive?

LOYD JOWERS: I think he is,

isn't he?

LEWIS GARRISON: No, he is dead.

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, is he?

LEWIS GARRISON: His wife is

still living, though. Mr. Barger is dead.

The only one that is still living is

Officer Zachery, who was in and out of the

grill, wasn't he?

LOYD JOWERS: Well, unless I'm

mistaken about this, Officer Zachery was in

charge of the men that was in charge of Dr.

King's security. Now, I could be wrong about

that, but that's what I thought.

LEWIS GARRISON: He was in and

out of the grill some, Officer Zachery.

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LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah.

LEWIS GARRISON: Merrell

McCullough was there, that's one of the first

ones you ever mentioned?

LOYD JOWERS: McCullough, yeah.

LEWIS GARRISON: How was he

identified? How was he introduced to you,

Merrell McCullough? Who introduced him to

you?

LOYD JOWERS: I don't remember

if it was Clark or Johnny Barger. It was one

or the other of them.

Now, Johnny Barger was my partner.

We were policemen together. He is the one

who introduced me to Frank Liberto. We used

to go there quite often. They was real good

friends.

Of course, I got to be pretty good

friends with Frank, because he could do you a

lot of good in Memphis , especially on the

police department.

DEXTER KING: Did you know

Frank's family, like his wife?

LOYD JOWERS: I met her one

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time, but as far as really knowing her, I

can't say I did. I never was out with her

ever at a party or anything.

DEXTER KING: Do you know her

name?

LOYD JOWERS: I always called

her Ms. Liberto.

LEWIS GARRISON: Is she still

living?

DEXTER KING: Is she still

living?

LOYD JOWERS: I think she is.

Dexter, you do remember I'm hard of

hearing, don't you? I only hear about thirty

percent in this ear. That's the reason we're

taping this, because sometimes I don't get a

question right. If I don't get it right, I

can't answer it right.

LEWIS GARRISON: They took -- I

don't know if you and Mr. Young are aware or

not, but the FBI questioned Mrs. Liberto, who

was the mother of Mr. Liberto, and his

brother, who was on the police force, and

I've got copies of those statements.

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DEXTER KING: Was his brother

Charles?

LEWIS GARRISON: A Memphis

police officer. They had a picture of Mr.

Ray. They all asked if they knew him, and

they said they did not but he looked

familiar, like someone they had seen around.

DEXTER KING: When they saw the

picture of Ray you are saying they thought it

was somebody --

LEWIS GARRISON: Mr. Ray claimed

in his deposition he had gone to New Orleans

to meet with Raul. In her affidavit and

also his brother and I believe someone else,

they all said Mr. Ray's face looked familiar.

DEXTER KING: Was the brother a

police officer in New Orleans ?

LEWIS GARRISON: Yeah. He is

retired now. He is still there, as far as I

know.

DEXTER KING: Does he have a

business?

LEWIS GARRISON: He may. I'm

not sure, to be honest with you. I'm not

554

sure. He is retired from the police

department. He may have a business. I'm not

sure.

DEXTER KING: Do you know

anything about his brother, Charles?

LOYD JOWERS: The one that lives

in New Orleans ?

DEXTER KING: I think so.

Charles.

LOYD JOWERS: No, sir. I never

did know Charles. Now, I heard of him.

Frank told me about him. But I never met

him, as far as I can remember. I never met

Charles.

DEXTER KING: What about in Dr.

Pepper's book he talks about the market, I

think L&M or I think L&L, Latch & Liberto?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, over on

Scott Street .

DEXTER KING: Okay. I think

there was a Frank Liberto, a produce dealer,

and a Frank Liberto --

LEWIS GARRISON: There were

three of them.

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DEXTER KING: There were three.

LEWIS GARRISON: A car salesman,

liquor store owner and produce dealer.

DEXTER KING: I was going to

ask you did you know all of the three or any

of the three?

LOYD JOWERS: The only one I

knew was Frank. He is the one that always

called me. Like I say, I handled that one

hundred thousand dollars for him. But it

wasn't the first time I handled money for

him. But it was the last time.

DEXTER KING: Let me

understand. They would ask you to receive

the money. They would send it over in a

box?

LOYD JOWERS: With my produce,

yeah, in the bottom.

DEXTER KING: Then somebody

would pick it up from you?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

DEXTER KING: Pick up the box.

Okay. Now, in the case of the one hundred

thousand that they sent over, did they tell

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you that it was for, you know --

LOYD JOWERS: They never told me

what -- none of the money I handled for them

over the years, they would never tell me what

it was for, just that it would be in there.

This time they told me how much it was. But

I didn't count it. I did not. I never

counted it.

LEWIS GARRISON: Describe for

them what it looked like, Mr. Jowers.

LOYD JOWERS: Well, it was in

one-hundred-dollar bills. Heck, I don't know

how thick it was. About like that. Two

rubber bands around them, one on each end.

It was in a brown paper bag.

ANDREW YOUNG: It was in with

your vegetables?

LOYD JOWERS: It was underneath

my vegetables, it sure was.

DEXTER KING: Now, who picked

up that box?

LOYD JOWERS: First Frank called

me and told me there will be a Cuban by to

pick it up. He said, you give him that

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package. That's when he told me that there

was a hundred thousand dollars in it.

I told him, said, Frank, you know I

ain't going to count that money. If it is a

hundred thousand, that's fine. If there is

not that much, that will have to be fine,

too.

Then he called me back -- let's

see. That was on a Wednesday morning. Then

he called me back and said, now, that wetback

is going to be by there to get that package

that is going to be handed in that back

door. He called him a wetback. I never

heard a Cuban called a wetback. So I don't

know if it was a Cuban or a Mexican, but it

was definitely a foreigner.

DEXTER KING: Was that Raul?

LOYD JOWERS: That's what they

said his name was. I don't believe that was

his name anymore than I believe yours is Jack

Thomas.

DEXTER KING: Why is that?

LOYD JOWERS: I just don't

believe that. Why would a man use his own

558

name when he is involved in something like

that? Why would he do that?

No, he would use Jack Jones or --

but Raul, I was going to look that up and

see what that stands for in a foreign

language. I'm not sure what it stands for.

But it is very common among foreigners.

LEWIS GARRISON: You at first

thought he said Royal, didn't you?

LOYD JOWERS: I thought he said

Royal, I sure did. But he corrected me and

told me Raul. I said, well, whatever.

LEWIS GARRISON: Did you know

any of Frank Liberto's close friends, who his

close friends were?

LOYD JOWERS: Well, the lady

that owned a restaurant out on in Highland

Heights.

DEXTER KING: Is that Lavada

Whitlock Addison?

LOYD JOWERS: Ms. Whitlock,

right. Now, I met her one time back along

about that time. She wasn't all that old a

woman, either. I don't remember what the

559

occasion was, but I did meet her. Of course,

I knew Nathan over the years after the

assassination took place. I knew Nathan real

well.

DEXTER KING: That was her

son?

LOYD JOWERS: Pardon?

DEXTER KING: Nathan was her

son, right?

LOYD JOWERS: Yes, sir.

DEXTER KING: Now, he knew

Liberto as well?

LOYD JOWERS: He knew him real

well. See, Ms. Whitlock owned a restaurant

out on Highland Heights , on Macon Road , I

believe. I believe that's where it was.

Frank used to stop in there all the time.

The fact is he tried to go to bed

with her all the time, Mrs. Whitlock. He may

have. I don't know. Anyway, he'd get oiled

up, get drunked up, and he'd do a lot of

talking.

DEXTER KING: Do you know any

other friends of his or were those the only

560

two?

LOYD JOWERS: You know, apart

from the people on the police department,

Johnny Barger, I'm not sure if Cross was a

friend of his or not, but I know Johnny

Barger was.

We used to be in a squad car in a

territory and we'd leave our territory and go

over on Scott Street to his place of

business. Sometimes we'd stay but a few

minutes, then other times we'd stay longer

than that.

See, you have to understand that

back then, back then everything was done

politically. If you got anywhere, you had to

know somebody that knew somebody. It is

almost that way now, but it was really,

really bad back then. There was no blacks on

the police department, it was just an unheard

of thing.

ANDREW YOUNG: Was that Crump

time? Was Crump in office back then?

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah. Crump

is the one that got me the job. I went to

561

see him on a Monday, and on a Thursday I went

to see the police commissioner. That Monday

morning I was riding in a squad car with a 38

hanging on my side, billy stick hanging on

this side. That's just the way things

operated back then.

ANDREW YOUNG: Were you in the

military?

LOYD JOWERS: I was in the Navy,

yes. I had been discharged out at

Millington , I don't know, less than a year

after I went on the police department.

Jobs were kind of hard to find back

then. They were doubly hard for black

people. It was hard enough for white people,

but it was tough on blacks back then to find

a job.

DEXTER KING: Any other friends

that come to mind of Mr. Liberto's?

LOYD JOWERS: No, I can't think

of any more. I really can't.

DEXTER KING: What about in

Texas , did you know of any of his

relationships with friends in Texas ?

562

LOYD JOWERS: Who? Frank?

DEXTER KING: Yes.

LOYD JOWERS: No, sir, I didn't

know any. I didn't know he had people

there. I knew he had a brother that lived in

New Orleans .

DEXTER KING: So you weren't

aware of any business he may have been in

Texas or New Orleans ?

LOYD JOWERS: No.

DEXTER KING: You just knew he

had a brother?

LOYD JOWERS: I knew he had a

brother that lived in New Orleans . I don't

remember who told me. I don't think Frank

told me, but he said he was in the same

business that Frank was in. And by that --

DEXTER KING: You mean produce?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah. Yeah. And

in the Mafia.

DEXTER KING: When did he first

talk to you about the killing?

LOYD JOWERS: About the killing

of Dr. Martin Luther King?

563

DEXTER KING: Uh-huh.

LOYD JOWERS: After it took

place. After it took place.

DEXTER KING: The thing I read

is a little confusing from Mr. Garrison, the

part about -- I thought it said that Frank

Liberto was discussing this potential riot or

March beforehand.

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, we talked

about that, sure. But there was no killing

mentioned, no.

DEXTER KING: Okay. But when

he said or alleged that he said that he would

go home with his toes in the air, sticking in

the air or something, sticking up, that if he

comes here, in other words, he will leave

dead, I mean, that's the way I interpreted

it.

LOYD JOWERS: If Frank Liberto

ever told me that, I don't remember. But I

wouldn't doubt him saying that. I would

not. Because that's just the way he was.

DEXTER KING: So you don't

remember talking about the killing until

564

actually after it took place?

LOYD JOWERS: If he -- he didn't

mention it until after the fact. I do not

remember.

DEXTER KING: When he did, what

did he tell you, when he finally mentioned

it?

LOYD JOWERS: He asked me a

question. He didn't come down to the place.

He called me on the phone. He said, do you

know what that bundle money was for? I said,

well, I have no idea. He said, well, that's

what it cost me to get King killed.

Word for word, that's what he told

me. I almost dropped the damn telephone.

Well, you know, it surprised me. I figured

it was to buy guns with or dope or whatever

it was he was dealing with.

DEXTER KING: So you were

surprised? You were really shocked?

LOYD JOWERS: I certainly was.

Why, sure I was. Now, if there was no

conspiracy -- let me pass this by you. If

there was no conspiracy, Dr. King, whenever

565

he come up to Memphis , he checked into the

Rivermont Hotel where he stayed when he come

to Memphis . Everybody knew that. I knew it,

even. I kept up with him not real close.

You know, the black people that come in my

restaurant, we'd talk about it. I'd carry on

a conversation with them.

The very next day, I think the very

next day, they moved him over to the

Lorraine .

Okay. Now -- I can't remember her

name. Anyway, the lady that runs the place.

DEXTER KING: Ms. Bailey?

LOYD JOWERS: Ms. Bailey. She

put him downstairs. They almost -- I don't

think he stayed downstairs one night. They

almost immediately moved him to the second

floor.

Now, there had to be a conspiracy.

I couldn't have done it. James Earl Ray

couldn't have done it. There had -- it had

to be his security people or the CIA or the

FBI. It had to be.

DEXTER KING: Did you know of

566

anybody else who may have mentioned the plot

before, you know, it happened other than

Liberto? I mean, did anybody mention the

possibility that this might happen or that it

was going to happen to you?

LOYD JOWERS: I don't remember

anyone mentioning it black or white. I

really don't. I had about half my

customers -- I'm talking about overall about

half black and half white, because I was in a

mixed neighborhood. Which was fine with me.

I didn't care what color they were. You

know, I always tried to see that everybody

had enough food when they left. But to my

knowledge, no one ever mentioned that.

ANDREW YOUNG: Mr. Jowers, do

you mind saying how old you are now?

LOYD JOWERS: I'm just passed

seventy-one. November 20th I'll be

seventy-two. I have glaucoma in both eyes.

I've got a cataract on this one.

ANDREW YOUNG: But you are

looking pretty fit, though?

LOYD JOWERS: I am. I exercise

567

every day. I do. I exercise every day.

Hell, I may live to be a hundred, but I don't

believe it. I smoke two packs of cigarettes

every day.

LEWIS GARRISON: You told

Mr. King before about a meeting that was held

in your place where some people identified

themselves as --

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah. Do you

remember me telling you that?

DEXTER KING: I do.

LOYD JOWERS: About these

policemen meeting there.

LEWIS GARRISON: The CIA and

FBI -- (Inaudible).

LOYD JOWERS: The CIA and the

FBI were there, but they weren't there the

same time all those policemen were there.

They were not there at the same time. But

that wasn't unusual. Cab drivers would meet

in there, policemen met in my place.

ANDREW YOUNG: This is all

before Dr. King was killed?

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah, this

568

all took place before. Very rarely did they

have any more meetings after the -- if a

policeman came in, it would be be Johnny

Barger or Clark or someone like that that

would just stop in for a minute.

DEXTER KING: So did you ever

overhear anything that they were saying or

did you have a sense for what they were

meeting about?

LOYD JOWERS: Now, I would be

working. You know how it is in a

restaurant. I would be working and I'd pick

up a word. I wouldn't know what the meeting

was about. What was discussed, I couldn't

say. Of course, I would only get a word now

and then from going by the table.

DEXTER KING: Now, you said

they didn't meet together. You mean the

Memphis police met separately from the CIA?

LOYD JOWERS: In the past,

yeah. See, this CIA business with the FBI on

my part of it was just guesswork, because

they always wear plain clothes.

ANDREW YOUNG: Did they come

569

together, the FBI and CIA?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, they was

together.

ANDREW YOUNG: But not with

the --

LOYD JOWERS: They were not with

the -- now, there was one stranger who was

with the police that I never seen before or

after the meeting. That was with Johnny

Barger and Clark. I just don't remember who

all was at that meeting. Like I say, I was

working. They had been there spending

money. Of course, I waited on them.

LEWIS GARRISON: How many times

was Merrell McCullough there before this?

LOYD JOWERS: How many times

what now?

LEWIS GARRISON: How many times

was Merrell McCullough in there before this

meeting?

LOYD JOWERS: How many times was

he in there? I can't remember. He could

have been in there when I wasn't even

around.

570

LEWIS GARRISON: But you saw him

in there several times?

LOYD JOWERS: I saw him several

times, sure.

LEWIS GARRISON: He was

introduced to you as a police officer, wasn't

he?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

LEWIS GARRISON: Johnny Barger

told you that was his assistant or --

LOYD JOWERS: I believe he was a

sergeant at that time.

LEWIS GARRISON: Barger?

LOYD JOWERS: No.

LEWIS GARRISON: Merrell

McCullough?

LOYD JOWERS: McCullough. I

believe he was a sergeant when Dr. King got

killed. I think he was.

LEWIS GARRISON: Was he in a

police uniform when you saw him?

LOYD JOWERS: No.

LEWIS GARRISON: He was not?

LOYD JOWERS: No. He was

571

plainclothed whenever he would come in the

restaurant. I never did see him in his

uniform. Now, Johnny Barger always came in

his uniform.

DEXTER KING: Tell me again,

because I just want to make sure I've got the

details down, when you received the money,

who brought the produce to you, the produce

box?

LOYD JOWERS: One of Frank's

regular drivers. I don't recall his name, I

really don't, if I ever knew his name.

DEXTER KING: Do you remember

when you received it, what date and time,

that kind of thing?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah. They

brought my produce on Wednesday.

DEXTER KING: Okay. This was

afternoon or --

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, it would be

in the afternoon. I opened up about five

o'clock, got lunch ready, I wouldn't go home

until four o'clock in the afternoon.

DEXTER KING: Then Frank called

572

you that afternoon?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

DEXTER KING: To ask you

whether you received it?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

DEXTER KING: What did he say

about the money?

LOYD JOWERS: He described

this -- he called him a Cuban the first time,

then he called him a wetback after that. So

I don't know. He was a foreigner, anyway.

DEXTER KING: What did he say

about the money? He just said the money was

in the box?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah. He didn't

tell me where. I knew it was hid then the

bottom of it

DEXTER KING: He asked you if

you had counted it?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

DEXTER KING: You said no, you

weren't going to count it?

LOYD JOWERS: That's the first

and last, only time, he ever asked me if I

573

had counted it.

DEXTER KING: Okay. But then

what did he say you were supposed to did with

the money?

LOYD JOWERS: He said put it up

until tomorrow, there will be a wetback or a

Cuban by there to pick it up. I said, well,

okay. So I put it in the old cook stove I

didn't use, because nobody ever went in

there, and I knew they didn't. But they

couldn't have got by me anyway.

DEXTER KING: So did the Cuban

come and pick it up?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, the next

any. The next day.

DEXTER KING: That's the person

that is alleged to be Raul?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

DEXTER KING: Was that your

first time ever seeing him?

LOYD JOWERS: If he had ever

been in there before then, I didn't know it.

Now, I won't tell you he wasn't in there, but

I didn't know if he was.

574

DEXTER KING: So you just gave

him the money panned that was it?

LOYD JOWERS: Sure. He walked

on out the door. Same way when he come and

picked that rifle up I took in the back

door. He come in, picked it up, hit that

door, turned right north on Main Street , and

I haven't seen him anymore since then.

DEXTER KING: That was Clark ?

LOYD JOWERS: No, I'm talking

about Raul.

DEXTER KING: I'm sorry. I was

confused. You said you haven't seen him

since he came to the back door. Is that what

you said?

LOYD JOWERS: I'm talking about

the guy that picked the rifle up the next

day, the one that actually --

DEXTER KING: Is that the same

guy you gave the money to?

LOYD JOWERS: Yes, same guy.

DEXTER KING: Same guy?

LOYD JOWERS: Same guy.

DEXTER KING: Okay.

575

LOYD JOWERS: Now, they said it

his name was Raul. It could have been.

DEXTER KING: What's confusing

is I think that -- I thought that the person

who picked up the money was different from

the person who picked up the rifle.

LOYD JOWERS: No.

DEXTER KING: It was the same

person?

LOYD JOWERS: Same person.

ANDREW YOUNG: But a different

person gave you the rifle?

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah,

definitely.

ANDREW YOUNG: Who gave you the

smoking rifle?

LOYD JOWERS: That was a white

man that gave me the rifle. I could see that

much.

LEWIS GARRISON: Wait a minute,

Mr. Jowers. You are getting confused. You

are talking about after the shot was fired?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

LEWIS GARRISON: A white man

576

gave you -- this white man gave you a rifle

after the shot was fired?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, in the back

door.

LEWIS GARRISON: You are pretty

sure that's Clark ?

LOYD JOWERS: I'd almost swear

to it. But now as far as getting a good look

at him, I did not, because the thing really

took (snapping of fingers) that fast.

LEWIS GARRISON: But the person

who brought the gun in was the one he called

a wetback?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

LEWIS GARRISON: Then the person

when came back and got it was --

LOYD JOWERS: The same person,

sure was.

ANDREW YOUNG: Let's see.

We've got three trips: One that they came to

pick up the money. That was the same man

that brought you the rifle?

LOYD JOWERS: The same man that

picked it up, yeah.

577

ANDREW YOUNG: He brought you

the rifle?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

ANDREW YOUNG: He picked up the

money. Then he came back and picked up the

rifle?

LOYD JOWERS: Now, wait a minute

now. There is a misunderstanding here

somewhere. I never seen a rifle in my

restaurant until after the killing.

LEWIS GARRISON: You said they

brought in a box.

LOYD JOWERS: There was a box.

How would I know? It had never been opened.

I don't know what it was. Now, there was a

box.

LEWIS GARRISON: A long box?

LOYD JOWERS: It was big enough

for that rifle to go in.

ANDREW YOUNG: Raul brought

that -- I mean the Cuban had brought that

box?

LOYD JOWERS: The same guy.

There are three trips he made.

578

ANDREW YOUNG: Okay.

LOYD JOWERS: That's right.

DEXTER KING: Okay. So he

brought the box after the produce was

delivered, the long box?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, he brought

that separate.

DEXTER KING: But he didn't

deliver the produce?

LOYD JOWERS: No.

DEXTER KING: That came from

Frank's market?

LOYD JOWERS: Frank Liberto.

LEWIS GARRISON: You bought from

them pretty regularly? You bought all your

produce from them, didn't you?

LOYD JOWERS: The same driver,

yeah. It was the same driver.

LEWIS GARRISON: How long had

you owned Jim's Grill at that time?

LOYD JOWERS: I opened that

grill up I believe in either late 1966 or

early 1967.

LEWIS GARRISON: You had been

579

buying produce from this same place all the

time?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah. If Frank

didn't have something, I would get it from --

ANDREW YOUNG: Do you remember

what it was, what kind of produce it was with

the money?

LOYD JOWERS: That day?

ANDREW YOUNG: Uh-huh.

LOYD JOWERS: If I thought about

it long enough, I could remember. Well, I

know I ordered three or four stalks of

celery, because I was going to have soup.

You have to have celery to go in soup.

Anyway, I know that celery was in there and

maybe a head or two of lettuce. Just what

you would use in a restaurant.

DEXTER KING: Then when he

brought the long box -- when was that

brought?

LOYD JOWERS: What time of day?

DEXTER KING: Was this the same

day?

LEWIS GARRISON: Was it the

580

same -- are you talking about the same day he

brought the produce in?

DEXTER KING: Right. The same

day?

LOYD JOWERS: You know, I don't

believe it was. I don't think there was but

that one delivery that day. You know, I

don't believe that long box was brought when

I was -- you know, I believe that long box

was brought when I wasn't there. That would

have been the next day. That would have been

the day that Dr. King got killed.

DEXTER KING: Who came and got

the long box? Who came and got the rifle?

How did they get the rifle?

LOYD JOWERS: If it was a

rifle. If it was a rifle.

DEXTER KING: Okay.

LOYD JOWERS: Raul would have

had to have picked it up. He had to come

after it, because I never give that long box

to no one else.

DEXTER KING: Where did you put

it?

581

LOYD JOWERS: Under the

counter. Under my -- you know, you have a

long counter. I put it up under the

counter. Now, it wasn't wrapped up or

anything. It was just along box. It was

about that thick, about that wide. It wasn't

all that long. Maybe as long as this table.

DEXTER KING: They told you to

store it?

LOYD JOWERS: Just hold on to

it.

DEXTER KING: So they came back

to get it when you weren't there?

LOYD JOWERS: I don't remember

giving it to anyone, I don't. I do not.

ANDREW YOUNG: And the police

never searched your store?

LOYD JOWERS: No, never. I

talked to one. He said he was FBI. That's

the next day.

ANDREW YOUNG: But they never

searched your place?

LOYD JOWERS: No, sir.

ANDREW YOUNG: Never looked

582

back in the back in the storeroom?

LOYD JOWERS: No, sir. To my

knowledge -- it had a full basement

underneath that place. To my knowledge, they

never went down there. As far as I know,

they didn't.

Now, I thought that was kind of

strange. There could have been a half dozen

people down in that basement, you know. Of

course, there wasn't nothing down there.

DEXTER KING: Who owned the

produce company that sent you the vegetables?

LOYD JOWERS: Who owned it?

DEXTER KING: Who owned it?

LOYD JOWERS: Well, I always

believe Frank Liberto owned it. But that

don't mean he did. He always said he owned

it, anyway.

DEXTER KING: Did Latch have

any --

LOYD JOWERS: I don't know. I

can't answer that.

DEXTER KING: Did you know

Latch?

583

LOYD JOWERS: Pardon.

DEXTER KING: Latch, do you

know Latch? Is he still living?

LOYD JOWERS: No. I met him one

time. As far as knowing anything about him,

I don't.

DEXTER KING: I wanted to go

back to the meeting with McCullough. Did he

come in with the Memphis Police officers or

with the Feds?

LOYD JOWERS: No, he come in

with the Memphis Police. I believe there was

a total amount of five. The reason I say

that, we had two people sit here and two over

here at a booth, and I took them a chair, so

there had to be five.

I know one I had seen -- I know one

I had never seen before and haven't seen him

since. Now he could have been FBI, could

have been CIA. I don't know.

DEXTER KING: You never heard

their conversation, but you had a sense of

what they were meeting about?

LOYD JOWERS: I knew it was

584

something illegal. I knew that part of it.

I would pick up a word now and then. I knew

they were up to something illegal, sure I

did. I wasn't really too concerned about it

because I didn't want to know about it. I

really didn't.

DEXTER KING: Did anybody else

see the money that you received?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah. Betty

Spates says she saw it. Now, whether she did

or not, I don't know.

LEWIS GARRISON: One of the

other ladies that worked there?

LOYD JOWERS: She described it

to me.

LEWIS GARRISON: Her sister?

LOYD JOWERS: I'm almost sure

she saw it.

LEWIS GARRISON: Two of them

did.

DEXTER KING: How would she

have seen it? Did she go and look in the --

LOYD JOWERS: She would have had

to have opened that oven up, the old stove,

585

and looked at it.

LEWIS GARRISON: We have taken a

deposition from her.

DEXTER KING: Now, Betty Spates

was the black waitress?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

DEXTER KING: And you had a

relationship with her. Is that correct?

LOYD JOWERS: That's true.

DEXTER KING: Would she have --

I'm wandering around a little bit because I'm

going off my memory.

LOYD JOWERS: I'm following you

pretty good. Go ahead.

DEXTER KING: Did she say that

she saw you run in with the rifle?

LOYD JOWERS: She said that,

Dexter, but she couldn't have because she was

not there that night. She was not.

Now, I was the only one working that

night. If Harold Parker was still living, he

would tell you that. He would also tell you

I went to the back door at six o'clock, too.

He was sitting -- there a row of booths

586

here. He was sitting sitting in the back

booth, and the back door was down here. And

the back door was standing open.

DEXTER KING: What did Frank

tell you about the murder weapon? I remember

before we met -- when we met before, he said

something about he said it was his property.

LOYD JOWERS: He said it was

his, yeah, he sure did.

DEXTER KING: But that was

after you retrieved it and put it under --

well, let me ask you.

LOYD JOWERS: When he told me

that, I had already given i to Raul or

whatever his name was.

DEXTER KING: The next day?

LOYD JOWERS: He didn't tell me

the next day, I don't think. Two or three

days later after that I talked to him.

DEXTER KING: No. I'm saying

when did you give it to Raul?

LOYD JOWERS: I give it to him

early the next day, sure did.

DEXTER KING: April 5th?

587

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, the very

next day.

DEXTER KING: Okay. But

Liberto didn't know that Raul was picking it

up?

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yes, he did,

too. I wouldn't have give it to him if

Liberto hadn't told me. I believe he called

him a wetback, he would be there to pick that

package up you got in the back door.

Of course, after the shooting took

place, then I knew what that damn rifle had

done, I really had.

DEXTER KING: You had put it

all together then?

LOYD JOWERS: Sure. It wasn't

very hard to put together. I knew I was

right in the middle of it. So all I could do

from then on was keep my damn mouth shut.

That's what I done. That's what the

Mafia knew I would do. But I don't know. I

don't think we'll ever get any more with it

myself. Well just have to see.

ANDREW YOUNG: McCullough is a

588

pretty young man?

LOYD JOWERS: He was young back

then.

ANDREW YOUNG: He will be

around a long time.

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah.

LEWIS GARRISON: That is thirty

years ago. He'd probably be -- (Inaudible).

LOYD JOWERS: Don't he work for

the CIA now?

ANDREW YOUNG: That's what I

thought.

LOYD JOWERS: That's what I

heard.

LEWIS GARRISON: Yeah.

LOYD JOWERS: That's what I

thought. That's what I heard. I didn't know

that for sure.

LEWIS GARRISON: If this was

thirty years ago and -- I think he would have

been in his twenties back then, and this was

thirty years ago.

LOYD JOWERS: I think the only

way we're ever going to be able to prove that

589

this conspiracy is to get the FBI and CIA's

records on it. It is common knowledge, white

and black both know, that J. Edgar Hoover

hated Dr. King with a personal passion.

ANDREW YOUNG: But there

wouldn't be any record of it.

LOYD JOWERS: You don't think

they would make records on something like

that?

ANDREW YOUNG: No.

LOYD JOWERS: Well, you are

probably right. It wouldn't be too smart to,

would it? How do you prove it?

ANDREW YOUNG: Well, it is very

difficult to prove. That's the reason why

we've advocated what they did in South

Africa, declare general amnesty and let

everybody come forward and clear their

conscience.

LOYD JOWERS: Now, that would

work if they did that.

ANDREW YOUNG: And it would

help -- I think it would help the country.

LEWIS GARRISON: I do --

590

(Inaudible.)

DEXTER KING: Let me ask you,

Mr. Jowers, I know you are really afraid of

being indicted if you come forward, but what

if you were to come to the media, tell your

story, like maybe talk to a reporter who is

friendly, I mean, somebody who we feel would

be sensitive, they wouldn't try to paint you

in a -- you know, in a negative light, but

just tell the story the way it happened, not

the way you've been dealt with in the past,

you know, by some of the media.

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, right.

DEXTER KING: But what if they

did a print story first and then you followed

that up immediately, like let's say the story

came out in the morning and you call a press

conference that day and you told your story

in front of a host of reporters where they

can't isolate you, you know, like with ABC

Prime Time and Turning Point, you know, they

could control the message, whereas if you do

you it in a live press conference, they can't

edit it, they can't spin it in a way that

591

they want it to be, how would you feel about

that?

LOYD JOWERS: If I thought it

would do any good, I'd do it in a minute. I

think what it will do -- I'm going to tell

you what I think, Dexter. If I thought it

would do any good, I would do it in a

minute. But let me tell you, if I do that

without immunity, the first damn thing a

prosecutor in Memphis is going to do is get

me indicted.

Now, you can just believe that or

not, but that's what will happen. He has

already said he has got enough evidence to

indict me but he don't have enough evidence

to get a conviction. That's the reason I'm

not indicted right now. I guarantee you it

is.

ANDREW YOUNG: They would

indict you for being part of a conspiracy?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, they sure

would.

LEWIS GARRISON: They did make

that statement.

592

LOYD JOWERS: Sure they did.

The fact is I've investigated it. I had four

or five beers in my belly, and I called him.

I said, you son-of-a-bitch, do you think I'm

scared to you? You are wrong.

DEXTER KING: Was this Cook?

LOYD JOWERS: What was that

guy's name?

LEWIS GARRISON: Glankler?

LOYD JOWERS: Mark Glankler.

That's who it was. I sure called him, got

him out of a meeting. I told him, I said,

hell, I'll come over and talk to you in a

minute.

LEWIS GARRISON: They never did

talk to you?

LOYD JOWERS: Ug-huh. He didn't

have a whole lot to say. I went off on him.

I sure did do it.

LEWIS GARRISON: From the time

this occurred on April 4th, 1968, they never

talked to you about any part you had in it?

LOYD JOWERS: No, never have.

Whenever I went down to the police station

593

the next day -- maybe it was the next day. I

think it was on the 6th. I went down and

gave them a statement, you know, about who

was in there.

Of course, that had just happened.

I remembered everybody that was in the

place. I knew most all of them. I knew all

of them personally, even the black guy they

put in, Frank Holt, I knew him personally.

But as far as them asking me anything, no.

DEXTER KING: What was Holt

doing there? Do you know?

LOYD JOWERS: All I know is what

he told me. He was going to work at the

produce place. Damn, I can't remember the

name of it. It wasn't Frank Liberto's

place. It was the one over on Front Street.

LEWIS GARRISON: I can't think of

the name of it, either.

LOYD JOWERS: Well, Carter's,

that's where he worked.

DEXTER KING: Did the rifle

have a scope on it?

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yes, sure

594

did. Clip-on kind.

LEWIS GARRISON: The problem

with wht Mr. Holt is saying, Mr. Jowers, is

they didn't operate at night over at the

produce company, did they?

LOYD JOWERS: To my knowledge,

they closed around five o'clock.

LEWIS GARRISON: I don't know

that he had anything to do with this case at

all.

LOYD JOWERS: I don't know,

either. Not really.

LEWIS GARRISON: There is

nothing to indicate that he ever had anything

to do with it at all. You never told anyone

he had anything to do with it?

LOYD JOWERS: All that detail

that come out on ABC was Willie Akins' idea.

ANDREW YOUNG: Was there

anybody black other than McCullough that was

in on the early planning?

LOYD JOWERS: Not that I know

of. There could have been.

ANDREW YOUNG: But he was the

595

only one that showed up in your place?

LOYD JOWERS: He is the only one

that ever showed up down there that had

anything to do with it. If there was any

more, if Jones was involved in it -- that was

Dr. King's driver. I knew him pretty well.

Is he still living?

DEXTER KING: People talk and

say they have seen him, but nobody has been

able to really pinpoint or locate him.

LOYD JOWERS: I hadn't seen him

in years. But I did know him.

LEWIS GARRISON: Last fall, a

year ago, Mr. Young, you've heard of an

Officer Redditt, an African-American, I had a

chance to talk to him a long time, and --

have you ever talked to him, Mr. King?

DEXTER KING: No, I haven't.

LEWIS GARRISON: He said that he

was there and, as you know, had been watching

Dr. King and I guess Mr. Young when they were

in Memphis, and he told me he was startled

because he had no knowledge of anyone ever

threatening him and had no reason to. The

596

first thing he knew, some officer came, I

forget the name of the officer, and got him

and took him to the police department, and

the police commissioner was there along with

who they identified as FBI agents and told

him that he had received a threat.

They took him to his home. An

officer went home with him to make sure he

stayed there. He said he knew what was going

on. By the time he got home, he heard about

the assassination. (Inaudible.) Strange

thing to me, though -- I've seen so many

strange things -- there is Mr. McCullough,

undoubtedly with the police department it has

been established, there he was, an

African-American on the scene, yet Officer

Redditt and the firemen, they were removed.

DEXTER KING: I think the point

you made was he was not interviewed as a

witness.

LEWIS GARRISON: Never. Not in

the police department or anywhere. His name

doesn't appear. He is shown in the pictures.

ANDREW YOUNG: Sam Donaldson was

597

the first one that pointed him out to me. He

said he was with Army intelligence and that

he was there to make sure that Dr. King was

dead.

LOYD JOWERS: Make sure Dr. King

was what?

ANDREW YOUNG: Was really dead.

DEXTER KING: He was checking

his pulse when he leaned over.

LEWIS GARRISON: I heard he was

supposed to give some type of a sign if he

wasn't.

(Reporter note: At this point

the tape ends and picks up with the following

statement by Mr. Jowers:)

LOYD JOWERS: Snub .38, a

short-shot .38. It was and snub nose.

That's four-inch of barrel. It shot a

projectile about that long. They called it a

short .38. They didn't make many of them. I

got it stolen from me.

LEWIS GARRISON: Mr. Jowers, you

told Mr. King, too, before what happened to

the casing of the bullet. What did you do

598

with that?

LOYD JOWERS: I put it down -- I

tried to bend it together. Well, I did bend

it together. I put it down in the commode

and flushed it. It didn't go down. It

stopped the damn commode up. Anyway -- this

is the next day. I got it out. That night,

whenever I closed, I drove across the

Mississippi bridge, and about in the center

of it I throwed it over the side while I was

driving along. It is in the bottom of the

Mississippi River, the actual shell, the

casing.

DEXTER KING: What time did

Lieutenant Clark -- what time did you see him

on April 4th? Like how many times or what

time did you see him in the grill? Was he in

before the actual shooting?

LOYD JOWERS: He had to be there

before ten o'clock, because I left there

about ten, ten-thirty.

DEXTER KING: That was in the

morning?

LOYD JOWERS: In the morning,

599

yeah.

DEXTER KING: What was he doing

there?

LOYD JOWERS: Pardon?

DEXTER KING: What was he doing

there?

LOYD JOWERS: He just stopped by

like the policemen used to always do.

ANDREW YOUNG: That was

Mr. Clark?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

DEXTER KING: This is on April

4th?

LOYD JOWERS: This was on the

day of the assassination, yeah. I don't

think Johnny Barger come by that day, but I

know Clark did.

ANDREW YOUNG: But now Clark had

to come into the -- into your store and had

gone out through the back?

LOYD JOWERS: He didn't go all

the way to the back. You mean that

afternoon?

ANDREW YOUNG: That afternoon.

600

LOYD JOWERS: It is a long brick

building.

ANDREW YOUNG: I know it.

LOYD JOWERS: It had an opening

over here. All he had to do was walk in

front of that fire station, walk on into

the -- no, he didn't have to come through my

place.

ANDREW YOUNG: What I was trying

to figure out is how did the rifle get out in

the backyard.

LOYD JOWERS: Clark had to carry

it out there, if he is in fact the one that

had it.

ANDREW YOUNG: So he carried it

from the back of your store?

LOYD JOWERS: Wait a minute. He

carried it from his car or a car. It could

have been a police car for all I know. I

wasn't back there. He carried it from the

street. Here is the fire station over here.

It ran around behind my store right around to

wherever it was he wanted to do the shooting

from, I guess.

601

ANDREW YOUNG: But the box was

in your store on the day before?

LOYD JOWERS: The box had been

in my store, but I didn't give it to anyone.

That's what I'm telling you. I did not.

ANDREW YOUNG: Okay.

LOYD JOWERS: But now someone

picked it up. But I didn't give it to no

one. I couldn't swear it was a rifle. I

think it was. Which anyone -- you know, I

just didn't.

ANDREW YOUNG: But you are

pretty sure that when you were standing at

the back door, Clark gave you a smoking

rifle?

LOYD JOWERS: I'm sure it was

Clark.

ANDREW YOUNG: And then you put

it under the counter?

LOYD JOWERS: I broke it down

and put it under the counter. I breached

it. You know how you take the empty shell

out.

ANDREW YOUNG: Yeah.

602

LOYD JOWERS: I broke it down

into two pieces, wrapped it in a table cloth,

put it up under the counter and put some more

towels on top of it. That's where it stayed

until the next day.

ANDREW YOUNG: And it was Raul

that came back and picked it up?

LOYD JOWERS: He didn't do

anything with it except left it wrapped in

that table cloth. He went out the front door

with it.

LEWIS GARRISON: What did he

tell you he came in for that day, Mr. Jowers?

LOYD JOWERS: What did who say?

Raul?

LEWIS GARRISON: Raul or Royal,

whatever --

LOYD JOWERS: He come to pick

that rifle up.

LEWIS GARRISON: Did he tell you

he came to pick the rifle up?

LOYD JOWERS: He asked me if I

had a package for him. I said, well, sure,

I've got it under the counter, I got it last

603

night. He said, that's what I'm asking for.

He was real short about it, like if

I wasn't going to give it to him, he'd blow

me away. Anyway, I give it to him, and

that's the last I seen of him.

DEXTER KING: Do you recall an

hour before the killing there was a phone

call made to Frank Liberto about -- in

Pepper's book they talk about this guy

McFerren overhearing a comment about "get the

SOB when he is on the balcony" or something

like that.

LOYD JOWERS: There was no phone

call that I know of made from my restaurant

whatever. I had a pay phone, but there was

not one made from my restaurant. If it

was --

DEXTER KING: You don't have

any idea who Liberto might have been speaking

with?

LOYD JOWERS: No, I do not.

Now, I had heard that, and I don't doubt it

taking place, but all I know is if somebody

made a phone call from my place, they would

604

have stepped inside and they called back

there while I was working. I was running

that place myself that night because I had no

help.

ANDREW YOUNG: Did you tell the

help to stay home?

LOYD JOWERS: No, sir.

ANDREW YOUNG: They just stayed

home accidentally?

LOYD JOWERS: I don't know if it

was accidental or not. I always wondered

about that, you know, because they were good

workers. Betty was a good worker, always

come to work.

ANDREW YOUNG: Is she still

alive?

LOYD JOWERS: Yes, she is still

alive. She lives in Memphis somewhere.

ANDREW YOUNG: Do you know where

she lives?

LEWIS GARRISON: She gave her

deposition.

LOYD JOWERS: She give a

deposition. She lives at 931 Roland.

605

LEWIS GARRISON: I'm not sure.

Something like that.

LOYD JOWERS: That's where she

lives. I understand she either has sold the

house or done something with it and moved. I

have no idea where.

DEXTER KING: You mentioned a

pay phone. Where was it located?

LOYD JOWERS: Right in the front

of the building. There was a front door --

like there is a front door here. The pay

phone was between the front of the building

and my steam tables. Now, someone could have

stepped in and used that phone.

DEXTER KING: You don't

remember anybody --

LOYD JOWERS: I don't remember

seeing anybody.

DEXTER KING: -- about

four-thirty?

LOYD JOWERS: I sure don't.

That don't mean someone couldn't have stepped

in that door and used that phone and I never

would have known about it. Because I was

606

trying to wait on everybody in the place. I

think I had it full of customers, and I was

trying to wait on them.

DEXTER KING: Did you discuss

any of the details of what happened with any

of your associates, like Adkins (sic) or

anybody like that?

LOYD JOWERS: No. Willie said I

told him a lot of things, but he is a big old

liar. I ain't told him nothing. I'll tell

him that, too, if I ever see him again.

DEXTER KING: What time did you

come to work on the 4th, April the 4th?

LOYD JOWERS: Four o'clock.

That's the time I came every day unless --

LEWIS GARRISON: Four a.m.?

LOYD JOWERS: No, p.m. You was

talking about in the afternoon, wasn't you?

LEWIS GARRISON: He was talking

about in the morning. What time did you open

in the morning?

LOYD JOWERS: I opened at five.

I thought you meant that afternoon. I

already told you that I was home during the

607

day.

DEXTER KING: Right. Did you

come in on April 4th in the morning?

LOYD JOWERS: I was in there

that morning, oh, yeah, about four o'clock,

because I opened up at five.

DEXTER KING: What were you

saying about four, that you came in at --

LOYD JOWERS: That afternoon I

come in. See, after I got lunch ready, I

turned it over to my cook, and she handled

the lunch crowd. Then I come back to work

that afternoon at four o'clock.

DEXTER KING: What type of car

were you driving that day?

LOYD JOWERS: I don't know if I

was driving my station wagon or my Cadillac.

It was one or the other. Whichever one my

wife wasn't driving, I was driving the other

one.

DEXTER KING: Did you hear --

were you told that there would be --

actually, I read it -- that there would be

somebody in the organization, in Dr. King's

608

organization, that would get him on the

balcony, so to speak, or get him in the

position? Had you been told that?

LOYD JOWERS: To my

recollection, I don't remember anybody

telling me that, I do not. Now, that doesn't

mean they didn't do it. We're talking about

thirty years ago or longer.

DEXTER KING: Had you heard of

anybody on the inside that they had

infiltrateed or penetrated?

LOYD JOWERS: Sure, I heard

that. I sure did, from customers in the

restaurant. I heard plenty of it. How much

of that talk was true, I don't know. Maybe

none of it. I tend not to believe half of

it.

DEXTER KING: What kind of

stuff did you hear?

LOYD JOWERS: Well, I heard that

Jones was involved in it. Then I heard that

the other person I heard was -- it wouldn't

make sense to me, but the guy that took his

place, what's his name?

609

ANDREW YOUNG: Ralph Abernathy?

LOYD JOWERS: Abernathy, yes. I

heard he had him moved from downstairs to

upstairs. I always doubted that. But

somebody had it done. It had to be someone

in his organization that would do it, I would

think, or his security. I always figured his

security had to have done it.

DEXTER KING: You never heard

anything mentioned about Reverend Kyles or

Reverend Jackson?

LOYD JOWERS: No, sir. I never

did. I never did. I heard a lot of good

about them. I never heard anything bad about

either of those men.

DEXTER KING: Did Liberto ever

mention his ties to Marcellous or -- what was

the guy in Memphis? -- Genovise or Venovise?

LOYD JOWERS: No, not that I can

remember.

DEXTER KING: But it was pretty

common knowledge that he was associated with

the Marcellous organization:

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah. Half

610

the police department knew that. Or maybe

more than that.

LEWIS GARRISON: I believe you

are talking about prostitution, gambling and

what else?

LOYD JOWERS: Who you are

talking about?

LEWIS GARRISON: Mr. Liberto.

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, Frank? He

had a little gun-running deal, selling guns

to I guess the Cuban rebels, I guess, or at

least that is what I was told, you know.

LEWIS GARRISON: Gambling,

drugs?

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah.

LEWIS GARRISON: Prostitution?

LOYD JOWERS: I would think that

money I handled for him before the

assassination, that that money was going to

buy drugs, guns, and payoff money. Now, he

had to pay off, I can tell you that.

LEWIS GARRISON: Who did he have

to pay off?

LOYD JOWERS: Well, he had the

611

police department in New Orleans, the police

department in Memphis. That got him a long

way. I'm not too sure he didn't pay

Mr. Crump some money back years ago. Because

he was one powerful dude in this town, you

can believe that.

DEXTER KING: Were there two

back doors from the building leading to the

brush area, one from the kitchen and the

other one from the rear stairway of the

rooming house?

LOYD JOWERS: Well now, are you

talking about where my restaurant was?

DEXTER KING: Yes, sir.

LOYD JOWERS: Okay. My

restaurant had a front entrance and it had a

back entrance. Okay. The upstairs had a

stairwell that come down the side, but it

stayed blocked off all the time. How they

got around the Fire Department blocking that

off, I do not know, but they did.

You could go down the steps, but you

get to that door and it would not open inside

or out. Of course, they had a front

612

entrance, and it went right down beside my

grill, which was inside the building, and it

went right out right next to my door.

My door was like here. Their

entrance was right here, just right around

the corner.

DEXTER KING: Do you know the

name of the people who were staying upstairs

in the rooming house --

LOYD JOWERS: Charlie Stephens.

DEXTER KING: -- on April 4th?

LOYD JOWERS: Charlie Stephens

is the only one I really knew. And the

crippled boy lived there. Damn, his name --

I'll be darn. I knew his name because he was

a customer that come in and bought a lot of

beer.

DEXTER KING: Was Earl Clark up

there or Raul that afternoon?

LOYD JOWERS: Not to my

knowledge. Not to my knowledge.

DEXTER KING: Do you remember

what Clark was wearing that afternoon?

LOYD JOWERS: No, I sure don't.

613

He wasn't wearing a police uniform. I know

that.

DEXTER KING: I remember you

mentioning a white shirt I thought the last

time.

LOYD JOWERS: Are you talking

about the guy that handed me the gun?

DEXTER KING: Right.

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah, he had a

white shirt on. Sure did.

DEXTER KING: Do you remember

what else he may have had on?

LOYD JOWERS: Dark pants and a

white shirt. Other than that, I cannot tell

you, because it happened so fast, about like

that and he was gone.

DEXTER KING: Are you pretty

comfortable -- I should ask, did you see him

fire the shot, the rifle?

LOYD JOWERS: No, I did not. I

did not. I heard the shot when it went off.

I couldn't miss hearing it. Whether it went

off from upstairs or down in the bushes, I

couldn't miss hearing it. It sounded like a

614

damn cannon.

DEXTER KING: You say it did go

off upstairs?

LOYD JOWERS: Whichever place it

went off. There wasn't but how many feet up

there, ten, twelve feet. That was right over

my back door. That's where the bathroom is.

My back door is right here, and the bathroom

is about ten, twelve feet above.

DEXTER KING: But if he handed

you the rifle, how could he have been

upstairs?

LOYD JOWERS: He couldn't have

been. Now, how you explain that and the test

shows that that bullet was going down, there

is only one explanation for it, and two or

three different people have said this

happened. Jones said something to him about

getting his overcoat or a coat, and he bent

over the counter -- this is the only

explanation I can come up with. He bent over

the rail. That's when he got shot on the

balcony.

DEXTER KING: From down in the

615

bushes?

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

ANDREW YOUNG: Your place was on

a hill, though.

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

ANDREW YOUNG: So the bushes and

the room were about the same level?

LOYD JOWERS: They were about

the same level. You see, if you shoot a

rifle --

ANDREW YOUNG: He was sort of

like that, leaning over talking.

LOYD JOWERS: He was leaning

over trying to hear what Jones was talking

about. That has to be the only explanation.

It went in long about here.

ANDREW YOUNG: It hit the tip

of his chin.

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, it did? It

did hit his chin? Okay.

ANDREW YOUNG: And then --

LOYD JOWERS: So he had to be

leaning over that railing. Now, if he in

fact was shot from there, from that backyard,

616

then that's where it had to be. I would say

it would be a pretty good angle from up in

that rooming house. Whether that is the way

it happened, I don't know. That's the only

explanation I have for it.

LEWIS GARRISON: Was the door to

the basement open that afternoon?

LOYD JOWERS: I never locked

it. There wasn't nothing down there. I

figured there was no reason to lock it.

There sure wasn't.

DEXTER KING: Do you know

whether Clark or anybody went down there

after the shooting?

LOYD JOWERS: I have no idea.

DEXTER KING: Do you think

Clark put on a uniform or had a uniform after

the shooting?

LOYD JOWERS: I have no idea.

DEXTER KING: But if he had on

a white shirt, would it have been easy for

him to change into other clothes?

LOYD JOWERS: He could change

shirts in a matter of seconds if you didn't

617

have it already buttoned up. Sure you

could. He could have changed that when he

got in the car.

DEXTER KING: So you never saw

him anymore after that?

LOYD JOWERS: No.

DEXTER KING: Who was in the

brush area at the time of the shooting?

LOYD JOWERS: I have no idea.

DEXTER KING: So you took the

rifle and just went inside?

LOYD JOWERS: I was already

inside. He handed me the rifle through the

back door.

DEXTER KING: He just came into

the back door or to the back door?

LOYD JOWERS: He was about from

here to Junior there. He didn't have to hand

me the rifle. He threw it to me. He threw

it to me like you would do a soldier. Of

course, I caught it. It had just been

fired. I heard it when it went off. I done

what Frank told me to, I broke it down and

put it under the counter and went on and

618

waited on my customers.

DEXTER KING: Did you see

anybody driving the Mustang that afternoon, a

white Mustang?

LOYD JOWERS: I did not. I know

there was one parked in my parking place when

I got to work at four o'clock. I pulled

right up behind him like that.

DEXTER KING: That was on South

Main?

LOYD JOWERS: On South Main. I

did notice it had out-of-state tags, but I

don't know what state it was. I knew it

wasn't local. I figured it was shoppers over

across the street over there shopping.

That's what I figured. I got as far away

from that sparkplug (sic) as I could and got

on out and went to work.

DEXTER KING: In your opinion,

and I know it is just an opinion, do you

think Earl Clark was the trigger man?

LOYD JOWERS: Now, you know, I

have an opinion of that. Now, my personal

opinion, I think he was. I sure do.

619

DEXTER KING: Why do you --

aside from him throwing you a rifle, was

there any conversation you all had beforehand

or any talk you had heard about did he have a

reason to or was it just money? Why would he

have done it? What was his motive, I guess?

LOYD JOWERS: I would think

probably for money. That's what I would

think. That's what I believed at the time.

ANDREW YOUNG: Somebody -- was

there any evidence that he lived a little

better after the shooting?

LOYD JOWERS: I really don't

know, Mr. Young.

ANDREW YOUNG: You didn't see

him anymore?

LOYD JOWERS: If I ever seen

that man any more up until -- he is dead,

isn't he?

LEWIS GARRISON: I think he has

died.

LOYD JOWERS: I don't remember.

I don't think I ever seen him anymore.

LEWIS GARRISON: Even though you

620

had been a close friend and had been hunting

companions?

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah, we had

been friends for years.

DEXTER KING: What about do you

recall which police officers interviewed you

after the shooting?

LOYD JOWERS: I have no idea.

They really didn't do any interviewing that

night. They took down a name and address and

telephone number and told us to go home when

they got all the information, name, address

and telephone number. That's all I give them

that night.

DEXTER KING: Who conducted the

crime scene I guess interrogation? Was it

FBI or the Memphis police?

LOYD JOWERS: I have no idea.

DEXTER KING: What about the

people, Barger -- is it Barger or Barjer?

LOYD JOWERS: Barger,

B A R G E R.

DEXTER KING: Zachery,

McCullough, Clark, Liberto, did you see any

621

of those people after the killing?

LOYD JOWERS: You mean that

night?

DEXTER KING: Right.

LOYD JOWERS: Or the next day?

No, sir.

DEXTER KING: Or even the next

day. I know you talked to Liberto.

LOYD JOWERS: I talked to

Liberto. I didn't see him. I didn't see

none of them the next day. I sure didn't.

DEXTER KING: How many times

did you meet McCullough?

LOYD JOWERS: As far as actually

meeting him, like you telling me his your

name is McCullough and me telling him my

name, I don't think I ever did. I did know

him. I knew him when I seen him and still

would, I think, even though it has been

thirty years.

DEXTER KING: How deep do you

think he was involved in the killing?

LOYD JOWERS: I don't really --

really and truly? I think he was just

622

following orders. That's exactly what I

think. I always believed that. I believed

he was just doing what he was supposed to be

doing.

DEXTER KING: How many planning

sessions did you see him attend?

LOYD JOWERS: How many what?

DEXTER KING: How many planning

sessions did you see him attend?

LOYD JOWERS: Just that one time

when he come in the grill. I had no idea

what they were talking about. I got a word

here or there. I knew it was illegal,

whatever it was. It wasn't unusual.

DEXTER KING: And Barger

brought him in?

LOYD JOWERS: I didn't say --

DEXTER KING: Did he work for

Barger?

LOYD JOWERS: See, Barger was a

field inspector.

DEXTER KING: What does that

mean? He was over the uniformed division?

LOYD JOWERS: He was over a

623

section of the uniformed. They had four

field inspectors. I don't know how many

policemen worked on each section. If I had

to guess, I'd say about a hundred, maybe a

hundred twenty-five.

Of course, they had the city split

up. Each one of them had -- I believe they

call them assistant chiefs now, but they were

field inspectors back then.

DEXTER KING: How much money

was Clark paid?

LOYD JOWERS: I have no idea. I

don't have the slightest idea.

DEXTER KING: What do you -- who

do you think paid him, then?

LOYD JOWERS: The man who said

his name was Raul. He is the one I gave the

money to. He had to be the one who paid him.

DEXTER KING: Do you think that

Raul approached Clark about being the

trigger man?

LOYD JOWERS: I don't know. I

wouldn't doubt it, but I don't know.

DEXTER KING: Do you know of

624

any other Memphis police officers that would

have received money for the operation?

LOYD JOWERS: No, I do not. I

don't know that Clark got any money out of

it. I just know I believe he did. But as

far as I seen him getting any, he may have

done it for the fun of it. I don't know.

You never know about people.

DEXTER KING: Did you ever hear

anything about this hoax radio broadcast, you

know, that this broadcast was put out over

the police radio that the suspect was

traveling in one direction?

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah, I heard

about that. He was supposed to have been out

in Raleigh or somewhere like that, a white

Mustang, the police were supposed to have

been behind him, and James Earl Ray said he

was going the other direction going down 65.

DEXTER KING: Going north?

Going north or south.

LEWIS GARRISON: South.

DEXTER KING: South, rather.

But the radio said he was going north?

625

LOYD JOWERS: Going north, yeah.

DEXTER KING: Now, it has been

said the only people who would have had the

technology to break into police radio

frequency would have been the military.

LOYD JOWERS: They are wrong

about that. I had a scanner that picked

up -- I think they had four channels. I had

a scanner that picked up all four of those

channels.

DEXTER KING: No, no, not pick

up but to actually break in and broadcast.

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah, to

break in and talk on it, that would be the

military.

DEXTER KING: In fact, that

came out in the House Select when they did

their investigation.

LOYD JOWERS: I misunderstood

you.

DEXTER KING: Sure.

LOYD JOWERS: I thought you

said --

DEXTER KING: To listen. You

626

can monitor. But to actually break in and

broadcast.

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

DEXTER KING: What about the

taxi driver that picked up the passenger at

the time of the killing and said they saw a

man who came down over the wall and get into

a Memphis police car up on I think Huling?

Is it Huling Street?

LOYD JOWERS: Huling, yeah.

DEXTER KING: And the driver

was killed that night.

LEWIS GARRISON: I don't think

he knows anything about that. What happened

with that was after this Prime Time telecast,

there was a gentleman that called me and gave

his name to Dr. Pepper, like he states in his

book.

The statement he made was that he

was a cab driver that night and that a friend

of his was also a cab driver and that this

friend was over at the Lorraine Motel and

radioed him and said I just saw -- well, he

said he was unloading some luggage and that

627

he was looking up and recognized Dr. King,

and he said -- he radioed to his friend that

"I just saw Dr. King was shot."

He said he called his dispatcher,

and he told him to go ahead and get out of

the area. So the gentleman called me who is

still living in Memphis and said that he told

his friend to meet him out at the airport at

a place they frequent out there.

He said two officers came out

there. He heard his friend give the police

officer an account of what he had saw. He

had seen just what you said, someone who ran

and got in a police car.

Then he'll tell you this today -- he

has talked to several people. But at any

rate, he said the police officer said, okay,

come down in the morning to the station and

give us a full statement. So the next

morning they found the man's body across the

bridge on the Arkansas side and they said he

had been thrown out of a car.

LOYD JOWERS: I remember that

cab driver getting killed. I didn't know

628

about all that.

LEWIS GARRISON: But there is no

account of it. You can't find a thing about

this. But this man will tell you that

today. I gave his name to Dr. Pepper.

ANDREW YOUNG: Do you remember

his name?

LEWIS GARRISON: No, sir, I

don't have it here with me right now.

DEXTER KING: This is actually

in Pepper's book, the name of the fellow?

LEWIS GARRISON: Yes. He gave

Dr. Pepper his name.

LOYD JOWERS: I didn't know

anything about it.

LEWIS GARRISON: I've had

someone interview him before Dr. Pepper did.

That's exactly what happened. Louis Ward, I

believe it is something like that.

DEXTER KING: You believe they

just got rid of the file?

LEWIS GARRISON: I think there

is no question. After we began to dig into

it, we could find no record where the man was

629

even killed. I believe his name is

Mr. Ward. He will tell you today that's what

happened.

He said he heard the man at the

airport tell the two police officers that he

had seen Dr. King -- he was unloading

luggage, looked up and saw Dr. King over the

railing, and he said he saw him -- it looked

to him like it blowed his whole face off. He

looked around immediately and saw a man

running and get into a police car.

Then he radioed his dispatcher. Of

course, he said they were close friends.

This man said he was out in East Memphis. He

said, well, let's meet at the airport and

we'll talk about it. He said two police

officers came out there and interviewed the

man.

He said, I heard him give the

statement, tell the police exactly what he

had seen. They said to come in in the

morning and give a full statement at the

police station. But then he was found dead

on the Arkansas side. The story was someone

630

threw him out of a car.

But we can't find even a trace of

it. In fact, the cab company claims they

can't find a company record that he even

worked there. We went so far to check with

the cab company. They couldn't find

anything. They won't admit it.

DEXTER KING: What did you hear

was learned about any prior knowledge about

the killing or involvement of anybody with a

public or private person in Memphis or

elsewhere or any state officials or federal

officials?

LOYD JOWERS: Any knowledge I

had prior to the assassination?

DEXTER KING: Uh-huh. Or even

after.

LOYD JOWERS: I heard everything

in the world I guess after. But I didn't put

much stock in it. Most of it was just beer

talk, you know.

DEXTER KING: Anything before?

LOYD JOWERS: Never heard a

thing before.

631

DEXTER KING: You mentioned

Solomon Jones. But you heard that after.

That is beer talk, is that what you mean when

you you said beer talk, the thing you said

about Solomon Jones?

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah, I heard

that afterwards, that he was talking to Dr.

King up on the balcony. If he in fact was

shot from my backyard, Dr. King would had to

have been leaning over that balcony. He

would have had to have been. Otherwise that

bullet could have gone up. I mean, it was

that or it would have gone level.

ANDREW YOUNG: It could have

gone either way. It really -- you can't tell

which way it went because it was such a clean

wound that --

LOYD JOWERS: Didn't it hit a

bone in his --

ANDREW YOUNG: A bone in his

spinal cord. I don't think it hit anything

in his shoulder.

LOYD JOWERS: I thought it hit

his collar bone.

632

LEWIS GARRISON: I don't think

so.

ANDREW YOUNG: The collar bone

is up here.

LOYD JOWERS: That's what I'm

talking about. It was like from here to here

just blown away.

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

DEXTER KING: Now, Mr. Jowers,

when we met the last time, it was clear that

we felt we needed to meet again to really

get --

LOYD JOWERS: Oh, yeah.

DEXTER KING: -- get more

detail. I'm trying to remember, and I'm

going off the top of my head, what you had

stated today that you haven't already stated,

and I can't really seem to pinpoint anything

much different than what you already said

then.

I wanted to just ask for your -- if

you could help me here, because I'm trying to

recall was there something that I missed the

last time that you stated today that you

633

didn't state before.

LOYD JOWERS: The only

difference is that I'm almost positive it was

Clark in my back door, and I'm not sure about

the rifle. But I'll tell you what I

thought. I thought it was a 30-30. It could

have been a 30-06, as well as it could have

been a 30-30.

Now, when the shot went off, it

sounded like a 30-30, because they are a lot

louder than a 30-06 when they are fired.

That is two things. The other -- I told you

something else that I didn't tell you

before. I don't know what it was. It is on

that tape, of course.

DEXTER KING: Well, is there

anything you want to tell me that I haven't

asked that you think might be helpful?

LOYD JOWERS: I can't think of a

thing, Dexter. Now, I've told you up to now

everything I know about it.

DEXTER KING: What have you --

or from your opinion or what you have heard,

rumors included, at what level of government

634

or involvement do you think this

assassination was carried out by plan?

LOYD JOWERS: What you want to

know is where the order come from?

DEXTER KING: Right.

LOYD JOWERS: It is my opinion

and my belief that the order come from J.

Edgar Hoover. Now, that's where the order

come from.

How to prove that, there is no way.

I could just easily said the President, but I

know better than that, because I don't

believe the president would have done that.

But now J. Edgar Hoover hated your dad.

DEXTER KING: How could -- if

military were involved, wouldn't the

Commander in Chief by just from you being in

the service and knowing --

LOYD JOWERS: Well now, wait a

minute now. The CIA or FBI are not

military. No.

DEXTER KING: No, I'm

saying --

LOYD JOWERS: You mean if the

635

military was involved?

DEXTER KING: Right.

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah. Not only

that, but there would be a record of it.

DEXTER KING: And wouldn't the

Commander in Chief have to give the order if

they were involved in something like that?

LOYD JOWERS: Some word between

the guy that was doing the assassination and

the President, somebody in between there

would give the order. But first it would

have to come from the head honcho.

ANDREW YOUNG: Hoover had a man

who was his number two man who was almost

staying in the White House, Lee DeLoach. He

was the one that was keeping -- that was sort

of telling Lyndon Johnson what they wanted

him to know.

LOYD JOWERS: Yeah.

DEXTER KING: Let me also ask

you is there anyone that you know of that can

present scientific evidence about this case,

anything that occurred that you know of,

somebody who is still living that would

636

have -- that would be able to say not only

did I see this, here is evidence, a rifle or,

you know, anything concrete?

LOYD JOWERS: To my knowledge, I

don't know of anyone that has scientific

evidence of which rifle did actually kill

him. I definitely don't believe it was the

one the police found. I'll never believe

that in a million years.

ANDREW YOUNG: Where did they

find that?

LOYD JOWERS: Right in front

of -- see, this was the street here and the

sidewalk. My building was right here.

You've got the rooming house, two doors here,

two rooming house doors, then you've got an

amusement company over here. His front door

sits back I guess it must be ten feet.

That's where the rifle was found.

DEXTER KING: So it is your

feeling that James Earl Ray did not --

LOYD JOWERS: No. He didn't no

more kill him than you killed your own dad.

No. No. Nope. I'd never believe that in a

637

million -- even if he told me I wouldn't

believe it.

DEXTER KING: So why was he set

up?

LOYD JOWERS: His own fault.

They got him out of jail. They furnished him

money. They furnished him passports. Now,

they come up with that tale about him setting

up a gun deal, but that wasn't true. They

may have told him that, you know.

But now he stalked your father

halfway across the United States, went to

Atlanta, had all that written down. Now, he

was doing that for the CIA and the Mafia.

That's exactly why he was doing that.

DEXTER KING: What if they told

him to go to these places so they could

establish a paper trail with established

documentation? If they were in fact using

him as a set-up person, wouldn't they want

him to appear that he was stalking him?

LOYD JOWERS: Why, certainly

they would. Sure they would.

DEXTER KING: So is it possible

638

that he was doing things that appeared to be

stalking but maybe he didn't realize it?

LOYD JOWERS: He probably didn't

even realize it, yeah. Yeah. I'm sure

that's the way it went down. I'm sure.

Because if he wasn't going to -- if he had no

intention of hurting Dr. King, which I don't

believe he did, why would he want to be

stalking him?

He was doing what he was told to

do. That was to make it look like that he

was stalking Dr. King, whether he was or

not.

DEXTER KING: Well, I think I

have asked --

ANDREW YOUNG: Do you mind me

taking a picture of this?

LOYD JOWERS: No, no. We'll

make you a tape of that, if you want to.

Help yourself. Go right ahead.

ANDREW YOUNG: Why don't you

lean toward --